DTWOF Archive Episode #13
September 18th, 2007 | Uncategorized
It was twenty years ago today… drugs-for-arms and rock and roll.
[Time for another archive episode. As I announced in May, I’m cutting back to one new episode per month for a while, and in between I’m running strips from 1987.]
105 Responses to “DTWOF Archive Episode #13”
Aww! This strip is darling!
Mo is such a sweetie!
*laughs*
Not only did I survive my mother coming to stay with us this weekend, but every time she got bored I handed her another DTWOF collection. So my mom just read this very strip…
(I started her off on Fun Home last winter. Which is becoming quite the deal in the family — my brother and his long time house mate went their separate ways, and the only she took of his that he was really upset about was his copy of Fun Home.)
Oh, my goddess, I was just last week listening to the live NPR broadcast of the Petraus (sp?) report to Congress and thinking to myself “Is this really worth all the same airtime as the Iran-Contra hearings? Now _that_ was worth the simlucast!” I remember being glad I was sick enough to stay home from school and listen to several days’ worth…
Er, I guess a simlucast would be very clear… Sorry, simulcast.
…and so began my crush on Harriet. *sigh*
*Ohhhhhh*, I love Harriet so very much. I’m all misty-eyed now.
Shucks Harriet really WAS the perfect match for our Mo back then, huh? I wonder how she’s handling motherhood these days. And dag I remember Aretha’s “Sisters are doing it for themselves!” LOVED it in 1987 – they played it at all the GLBT dances…. What a sweet strip this one is!!!! >
i don’t know, that “sisters” song was great and all, but i always had to block out the alienating middle 8 where the two gorgeous, loud and talented women assure you they’re still hetero…
oh and BTW i loved harriet so much – so earthy and calm, so acute, so cool… bring back the harriet!
now the phone number i carry home on the subway belongs to someone fabulous….who wants…to babysit….my kid.
Sigh.
Alison-
I’m piping up characteristically late, as well as thumbing my nose at your last, comment-proof post. 🙂 But I just wanted to give you some friendly advice- I don’t think it does you much good to worry overly much about the way conversations are conducted on the blog, or about the feelings of the people who participate in it. True, you maintain this blog, and I don’t think it at all unreasonable to request that people keep their posts at a manageable length. However, I think that if you keep feeling obligated to plead on behalf of the various lurkers on the blog, you are ultimately going to wind up making the same pleas over and over- as you have already had to do.
The blogosphere is by nature a conglomeration of unruly little fuckers. (And the good folks on this blog are WAY better than the standard- check out the submorons who post on YouTube if you don’t believe me.) And while it is true that the web gives a lot of passive aggressive people a chance to attack one another, or rant at length, it also gives the reader/poster the opportunity to skim over the stuff that doesn’t interest them. Cyber-people are pretty easy to ignore.
My point? Don’t sweat the small stuff.
You know this is exactly how my girlfriend and I first met? When I read this strip for the first time, it was almost as if AB read my mind!(or my diary).
This is #13, but there’s another #13 posted earlier. 😕
I love these older panels. I didn’t catch onto DTWOF until 1993 & haven’t seen anything before strip #24 (the beginning of New, Improved DTWOF). Never knew how Mo & Harriet got together.
Now, if only Aunt Soozie will direct a post to me my life will be complete!
My Dearest Hariette, (Harriet?)
You are divine in this early strip. I love your spikey haircut. I want you. You need me. Or maybe you need a copy of Dykes To Watch Out For. and Hariette…
There’s more… I want you to know that “the blogosphere is by nature a conglomeration of unruly little fuckers” …that’s my new credo.
LM you are much better at shutting up than I am. Kudos.
Uhhhh. Thanks, wildeny. I screwed up. This is the real 18. The other one was 7, and I have now relabeled it.
Is it possible that this strip provides evidence that I am less sociable than even Mo?
See why I keep saying H and M should get back together? I remember that after this strip,Mo agonizes for weeks about calling Harriet,thus annoying our other lusty lasses, Their first restaurant date is very sweet,too.
The middle 8 in Aretha’s “sisters” song?? Yike. Guess it slipped by me. Too busy trying to steal first kisses from girls. Of course what we didn’t know back then was… just how 80’s we were! Heh.
I guess the killer middle panel (“Listen Mo, you’re really cute when you start raving with indignation but…”) is Harriet’s/DeLandDeLakes message to AB – substitute ‘this blog’ for the 6:00 news. And then remember, yes we all really do think you are way cute. 🙂
Aww… Harriet and Mo. Harriet was so much sweeter than spiky Sydney. It’d be great to see what Harriet’s been up to lately. How old is her kid now?
This strip shows how relatable DTWOF is for anyone of any orientation with weird social skills… how many times have I been unable to make light, friendly chit-chat with a guy? And instead of raving about politics, I rave about my latest geeky obsession which he has no interest in but it’s all I can think of to talk about? I love how adorably awkward Mo is in these early strips!
Must…control…the…hand……don’t….touch….the….rodent……
heh heh… too busy kissing girls… heh…heh…
you crack me up, ready2agitate.
Wow. Remember going to dances?
i like being a part of a group called unruly little fuckers (ulf). do you think we could get t-shirts made?
Well, now we have a solid clue as to the location of DTWOF. Telephone prefixes of 247- occur in Reno, NV; Oxnard, CA; Montgomery, AL; Gold Beach, OR; Minnesota; Central Georgia; Ketchikan, AK; Alberta, Canada; Bishopsgate, London. Anyplace else?
Maggie Jochild — BRILLIANT!
As always!
Please not Harriet again! We could do with a glimpse of her, and possibly check out how her daughter is going. But please please, no more than that:
Mo has had more than her share of a relationship with her. Remember how she went on with the wonders of motherhood (as if we haven’t enough of that) and how she was manipulative with Mo? And she could not even be blamed: she was pregnant, and later she was a mother (anybody remembers Claire Bretecher’s “Les méres”? One of them says “Now I am pregnant, I am beyond reproach”)
If we cannot see Mo and Sidney fix their relationship, at least give us somebody new. But Sidney is too thought provoking, controversial, and fragile as a character for us to lose (and they have such a great sex life!).
I remember getting ready for those 80’s dances for hours and hours only to look the same as I always did but with perfect knee rips in my jeans, conditioned hair (everywhere) and dripping with some awful androgynous cologne that would ineveitably be drowned out by all the chicks wearing 12 oz. of Obsession. I really miss those days.
If you want your share of dances, be a high school teacher. I actually have to attend prom this year. Luckily I convinced the administration that I was much better at parking lot duty and last year they actually broke their sexist assignments and let me sit outside and make sure no one came back in who had already left!
Completely off topic…could someone tell me the difference between being a lesbian and being queer for a female? Again, northeast Missouri is not the hotbed of this kind of information and the question came up because an instructor at a university informed her class that she was “not a lesbian, but queer.” An old student wanted to know the difference and I gave her my best blank look 🙂
Where would you read DTWOF if you couldn’t read it here? Is that worth $2 a month to you?
Yes, this is a friendly and persistent reminder that we are now in the middle of our second annual DTWOF Fundraising Drive. The goal is $1,000 to cover the costs of running this commercial-free blog and offsetting lost revenue Alison once received from DTWOF’s appearance in “alternative” newspapers. (Now, sadly, dwindling in number.)
Suggested donation is $12 to $50 for the year.
Click on the PayPal button in the upper right section of this blog to donate by credit card or PayPal.
If you want to donate by check, I’m hoping that an address for that will soon appear.
[Do I sound like an NPR host yet?]
@laura
Sidney is too thought provoking, controversial, and fragile as a character for us to lose (and they have such a great sex life!
i totally agree on the merits of having sidney in the strip. i love her twisted ways and her hidden vulnerability which so seldom shows; when it does, however, it always touches me deeply. (remember when the son of the nurse who accompanied her through radiotherapy died and she thought about writing a paper and started with a title saturated with queer theory vocabulary.)
BUT: sidney and mo, it seems to me, have not had a sex life since sidney’s been diagnosed with cancer. that true?
I miss Harriet sooooo much.
DTWOF fan. Remind me, when you saw “we” are in the middle of a fund raising drive” who do you mean? You or AB? Who set the $1000 goal? Because I think we have no idea of her needs or her business plan. Maybe she needs the money or maybe she needs to claim the site a tax deductable PR business expense. Maybe neither of the above. In business, losses (expenses) often are needed to offset gains.
I’m sure I don’t know AB’s business plan or her tax strategy, and I assume you don’t know either, but I don’t remember AB asking for us to have a fund drive.
Hey Kate–
I’d buy that t-shirt. I’d wear it with pride!
I miss Harriet too. While there are a lot of differences between her and Sydney, the one I think is most important is that Harriet is a kind person. I wouldn’t say the same about Sydney.
I love and appreciate Alison and her work, I really do. I think the 12 (or is it 13?) dollars a year is more than reasonable. But please, no pledge drives right now, please! I say this because there are several of us out here who are having a lot of trouble making rent or mortgage payments, and we need every available dime to go to that. If the site is in danger of being shut down, that’s another matter. I’d find some way to get the extra money. But unless Alison herself says otherwise, can we just stick with our regular donations, at least for now?
Hi Liza and Shadocat,
Thanks for your posts.
Liza — As a big fan of this site, I’m simply reminding everyone about the reality of keeping an ad-free blog up and running. You can read more if you go the site’s Home page and click on “Support the Site” in the right hand column, above the Paypal button. Lots of good details there.
With the world “we,” I’m referring to the group/community/multitude of participants on this blog. Sorry if that was confusing. I’m following up on the idea we all discussed last year at this time, a once-a-year drive to help finance the site.
As for the $1,000, I chose it randomly. If you have a number you like better, suggest it!
Shadocat– The beauty of member-supported sites and sliding scales is if you can’t contribute, you can still read and participate. All of us have different abilities to give and this site, because it is free, honors that.
Finally, as not to become as truly repetitious as an NPR fund drive, I’ll back off until the end of the month.
Have a Dykey Day!
@Maggie Jochild – I thought some of those early strips were firmly in Minnesota. Which book has the spread that shows the Mpls skyline from Lake Harriet? It shows them all at the lake doing summer stuff. All my comix are up out of toddler crayon range right now.
ah, the beginning of an era!
And, Alison has said that Madwimmin Books is based on Amazon Book Coop in Minneapolis.
Remember when anything vaguely triangular would be considered so incredibly rad by today’s standards? Note Harriet’s earring. So 80s! And Mo has a little black triangle in her ear. One of the many things to adore about AB is her attn to detail. It’s particularly sublime when looking back over these 20-year-old archived strips each month.
@fundraising: I’m glad to be reminded about the need so I can contribute (even if the method was vaguely questionable). Let’s have that address, though. PayPal? What’s that? (kidding, but not really: I don’t do it.) Thanks to all.
(OK I used vaguely twice. Oop.)
Aarrrggh! (c) Peanuts. Flashbacks of torment-filled nights in gay clubs – the inability to think of light hearted chatter strikes so many chords! Hair gel is a distant memory these days. Hairstyles in Britain are so 70s at the moment, only with more highlights and hair-products than ever before.
Thanks for the reminder of the annual donation drive. It’s the best way for people like me to support AB apart from buying the books. I live in Britain so Paypal is the easiest way to do this. I don’t think you’re allowed to send dollars in the post from Britain to the USA! It’d never get past customs!
Laura, Claire Bretecher! How nice of you: I had almost forgotten about her, over the years. But yes I would recommend her work to anyone who enjoys DTWOF; there are affinities.
Hayley,
Thanks for the flashback. Pre-Obsession the dykes in the know were wearing Pierre Cardin. I think that’s what it was…men’s cologne in a phallic looking bottle? It made me swoon..the cologne, not the bottle. Now in my senescence I’m all smell sensitive and don’t like to be near people who are heavily fragranced.
My contribution re: the paypal button…
I’m all for non-profits and politicians disclosing their finances. I’m all for paying artists for their work…even if that work appears online and the “fee” is voluntary.
I don’t know about asking artists to disclose their financial situation/business plan. I don’t really get that part. Admittedly the arts and money have a strange and complex history with one another.
If we lived in some lezzie utopia maybe we’d only pay the poor artists for their work and the wealthy artists would give it all away for free. But, in the real world artists gets paid for their work if and when they can sell it, no matter their financial status. If they are successful they can decide when, where and whether to be charitable.
I don’t know…what do you think Liza? You’re a gallery owner. Do artists deserve to be paid for their work? Or only if they’re adequately represented and/or financially needy? Only if they’re creating work that is tangible… that doesn’t merely exist online? Only if there is a set fee or subscription?
I’ve seen lots of websites that have paypal buttons on them so readers who enjoy the site can contribute and help maintain an ad free space. I’ve never seen the webmaster or webmistress disclose their annual finance report. It’s paying for something you enjoy but on a voluntary basis…like shareware…it’s clearly not charity. Maybe that’s what sparked the confusion here, when some posters referred to the option to “contribute” to the site in terms that are associated with non-profit fundraising.
You might object to that…that’s understandable…but, I think we all know that Alison isn’t destitute. Perhaps you think it’s ill-advised for Alison to conduct her website in this manner. As a professional in the field your opinion is valuable but just like with her financial situation… the way Alison runs her website is her personal beeswax. and maybe she’s just too classy to discuss those things in such a public venue…oops…pardon the pun.
This strip was great preparation for my first lesbian dance.
As for the difference between “lesbian” and “queer”- Danger, Wil Robinson! Identity politics! Danger! These words are attempts to encapsulate people’s identities, but because no-one’s identity is identical to anyone else’s, they mean something different to every individual who uses them.
I’m queer, which I use to mean that I’m transgendered, unwilling to define myself in terms of who I sleep with, and too lazy to play the identity game. The instructor who thus identified herself probably meant that she sees herself as avant-garde, a rebel and not bound by sexual politics, or something along those lines. She also may mean that she will resent your making any assumptions about her whatsoever, up to and including the assumption that she enjoys sleeping with women. Mistress Matisse wrote a fine article about the “gotcha games” that people play with queer identities: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=107989 .
Even though I’m queer, I get leery when people position their identities in this way, without invitation or elaboration. Either she wanted a chance to have her own version of Oprah right there in the classroom, or she was looking for a fight. Maybe I’m gun-shy from one too many Women’s Studies 101s.
Maybe she doesn’t sleep with women. I identify as queer because it’s the only word that doesn’t specifically exclude parts of my life. I get read as a lesbian, but I hardly ever date women, and I don’t identify as one, so that’s not terribly accurate. But to give a laundry list of aspects of my identity and the identities of my lovers, past and present is tedious and frustrating. And also not really anyone’s business.
Which is not to say that people don’t play the games you’re talking about, because of course they do. But it’s possible she meant it in a much more neutral way.
And what’s wrong with not wanting people one knows casually making a host of assumptions about ones identity or sexual preferences? Does that have to be a gotcha game? Must our identities be explicated and detailed?
Er, or maybe I’m saying the same thing you are? I can’t tell! Maybe I’m feeling a little sensitive right now as my mother and I are on our 20th go round in 10 years about my big queer identity and life and how scary and disappointing it is. Too much information, perhaps, but I get so frustrated with demands of folks, both straight and not (whether G, L, B, T or Q) that another person’s identity must be explained (by that person, of course) and make sense in order to be valid.
Looks like we’re both reacting partially to previous negative experiences. Maybe we should process this more.
Er, that should read: ” Must our identities be explicated and detailed for the consumption of others?” Or something along those lines.
Ah, even before Mo and Harriet got together. Way back. Way.
My sexual identity? When I figure it out, I’ll let you know. I’m only 53, don’t rush me.
Jana C.H.
Seattle
Saith Floss Forbes: If you don’t know the tune, sing tenor.
Butch Fatale, I think you identify as queer for the same reason I do—it’s imprecise to identify as bi, and inaccurate to identify as straight or gay, so queer is the best possible solution. I also think that there are so many attributes people can be attracted to in a person that sometimes gender is a secondary characteristic: I am more attracted to specific types of person than I am to specific genders of person. And the sex/gender dichotomy gets really, really messy when applied to sexuality, because all of a sudden transpeople run into a world of trouble. So do “effeminate” men and “masculine” women—if I’m a straight woman (I’m not, but let’s pretend), and therefore attracted to masculinity, should I be attracted to masculine women? How much does it matter that they have vaginas? Obviously, that answer is going to be different for everyone. Thus the usefulness of “queer.” We can identify vaguely as sexually unusual, oblique, and interesting, without making everything in terms of gendered preference.
So ksbel, your student was probably saying “I’m not a lesbian, but I like girls.” Her reluctance to identify as lesbian might be because she likes boys, too, but it isn’t, necessarily: who knows, she might identify as a straight boy. Or she might just be a girl who likes girls and hates the word lesbian. It’s tough to know without asking awkward and invasive questions about her history, which is sort of the point—no one makes straight people answer those questions, so why should queers have to answer them?
Just a point of reference from someone who has looked into this quite a bit. Hosting a web site like this is way waaay less expensive than $1000/yr. Less expensive than $200/yr. (My own is under $75/yr) The main question then is offsetting AB’s loss of income from alt newspapers so she can continue to participate here, while working on her next book. Whatever AB got from Fun Home, it is none of our business.
As someone currently running four websites at a cost of zero, I can say the outlay is in time spent on formatting and moderation. If you pay others to do that, that’s your choice. BUT — if a website classifies as a commercial site, then all costs are part of your annual tax return, and expenses are deductible. People seem to be comparing apples and oranges here.
Artists who put up blogs as marketing tools have to weigh lots of decisions about content, sharing, advertising, etc. These are “private” decisions, you’re right, Aunt Soozie. But the minute we, as the public, are asked to subsidize those private decisions, we have a right to more information. Artists are not members of a class elite. They have a right to be paid, and well, but that doesn’t buy them any more financial privacy that someone running a McDonald’s franchise.
If it’s all right to declare that someone is “not destitute”, why is it rude to ask for more clear terminology? We have different class values at play here.
Buying the books (give them away) is, to my mind, far more beneficial to an author, musician or painter — gives them greater clout for future contracts, spreads their work around, supports those who support art (publishers, agents, etc), and creates demand for other similar artists down the pike who may still be in kindergarten. If you want to buy a relationship with Alison, I would ask that you not assume your values are shared by the rest of us, and that when we disagree, we are either refusing to support art or somehow being “intrusive” in a way that all the people addressing their posts to Alison directly are not.
I run two websites which I did pay for. They are not blogs (thank g*d). I paid $1000 for the first one, three years ago, and $1,500 for the second one, two years ago. Other than the initial expense, and the cost of sending out mass evites, (which runs to about $10 a pop) I have no other web expense. I maintain both websites myself. I made sure that was part of the design.
I do spend a lot of time on my sites and time is money. But, people, we are talking about businesses here. Websites are Public Relation and Marketing tools. Any business worth it’s salt has to have a website, and these days, it had better be a great one. My websites have paid for themselves in PR and sales. I do not expect people who walk into the gallery, or who buy my art, to pay for my website. Or my advertising, or my exhibition postcards. Of course, a part of all sales go into operating expenses, but that’s a different process.
Alison is running a business. The website is part of it, an important part of it. I’d be flabbergasted if it wasn’t making her money in sales, speaking engagements, fame etc. Let’s not kid ourselves about the return on her investment.
Pay for Alison’s work, by all means. It is valuable. Buy the books, go to her speaking engagements. If you can afford it, buy her art – from me. That way AB and I both profit and you will have a piece of art that will bring you pleasure and will increase in value over time. But don’t throw money at AB willy nilly. Or at me.
Buy art. Buy food. Buy local. Take care of yourselves.
Because “queer” is almost defiantly *imprecise*, the best way to find out what a given person means by identifying as “queer” is to ask that person. Different persons will have different reasons. But then, the same is true of “gay” and “lesbian,” which are not really very precise either. Identities are more like pledges of allegiance than descriptions of the self or of the self’s behavior. I disagree with Will that no one makes straight people answer such questions; I do, since “not gay” can be as imprecise as “gay,” as folks like Larry Craig remind us; and I think they should have to answer them more often. But I don’t think one has to ask in an invasive way. If someone says they prefer “queer” to “lesbian” or “gay,” I don’t have to know the intimate details of their sexual practices to know why they prefer that term. Unless they *want* to tell me.
I still like “gay,” if only because it infuriated so many homophobes: how dare those homosexuals recruit such a nice, innocent word! And now, thanks to newer generations of homophobes, “gay” has become a pejorative, which means it’s about due to be reclaimed. I always liked “queer,” if only because it infuriated so many respectability-minded Homo-Americans, and also because, as Christopher Isherwood (I think) said, it makes straights uncomfortable, especially if it’s the word they use when they think no queers are around. I’m also fond of “fag,” “cocksucker,” and “butt pirate.” (In fact I once toyed with the idea of starting a group called Butt Pirates, who would show up in eye patches and similar pirate drag to annoy homophobes. Never got it off the ground though.)
I’m not really attached to any word, though, because I’m very sensitive to the fluidity of language, how it changes over time, even within a generation. I get prickly, in various senses of the word, when anyone tries to define a word like “gay” or “lesbian” or “queer” too precisely; I know they’re up to something, and that kind of disingenuousness annoys me.
Oh dear — have I transgressed the 10-line limit? 😎
Indeed you have. Now walk the plank!
Seems two things are mixed up here – running the blog, and publishing the cartoon strips. If the strips weren’t here for free, to read them I’d have to buy one of the magazines which pay AB for running them. I subscribe to read the Guardian UK in pdf format so I can see the whole laid-out page – less than I’d pay for physical paper, and nothing to add to the recycle bin. Sometimes I pay to read journal articles online. As news/paper publishing heads towards online (think say ten years hence) it will stop being free. I don’t know if this site existed before Planet Out dropped DTWOF – anyone remember? I wouldn’t pay to read a blog, but I can’t object to paying to read web-format publishing, any more than I expect to get a 10-section newspaper for free.
It has to be worth some good english pennies to see a proper full-sized woman shown as desirable…
Today is “Talk Like a Pirate Day”, so I guess we need a “Talk Like a Butt Pirate Day”. What would that sound like, I wonder?
Me, I’m fond of pearldiver.
Liza,
Respectfully, I really don’t think it’s your place to say “don’t throw money at AB.” Of course, making the request on your own behalf is another thing. I’ll be sure not to throw money at you.
I am proud to support Alison on an annual basis by making an online contribution. I used to read her work in alternative papers, which are either a) no longer in existence or b) no longer newspapers I have access to. I’m extremely happy to be able to read her work on her website now. She could choose at any time to maintain a website that doesn’t include her work, but graciously continues to share it with us, even though that almost undoubtedly encourages some readers to refrain from, or delay, purchasing printed collections. Furthermore, the existence of the PayPal button seems like evidence that she appreciates monetary donations from those who choose to make them.
I am supremely grateful for the on-line strips and like having the choice to make a regular, online donation to show my support.
Regards, Amy
Art being published online is different than a business setting up a website as a pr or marketing tool.
As Maggie said it is about the time and effort invested in creating that work…not what it literally costs to maintain a website. In addition to being a vehicle for Alison to self publish her cartoons this site has other charms that folks seem to appreciate.
I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing that Alison charges much more than $12. a year for an actual relationship. I didn’t see a fee schedule for that listed anywhere but we may get those details in her next book.
Pam I and Amy already made my point while I was typing, sorry.
But they didn’t comment on Alison Bechdel for hire which just titillates me to no end.
#1 ulf speaking here: minnesota, most definitely
should i cough really loudly–our posts are a bit, well, unruly(befitting the name ulf)–not that i’m complaining
i wonder if alison would draw us an ulf logo for the t-shirts? 😉
Aunt Soozie, if the business is art, then the website containing that art is a marketing tool. I publish my art online too. And the work of the artists I show. My sites are a great read and terrific eye candy. You can enjoy the work online. You can even download for personal use if you want to, although the format is small. But mainly I maintain a website to introduce people to my work and my gallery and to stimulate sales. I propose that it is the same for this site. And hundreds of thousands of other artist’s sites.
Of course there is time and money invested. That’s what it takes to run a business. If AB wants to charge a certain amount for the strips online, that is part of her business plan. I’m sure that she and her accountant have discussed the best financial strategies for her. But I’m not convinced that reading online keeps people from buying the strip collections. There is still something satisfying about sitting with a book that can’t be replaced by the glowing screen.
And I’d be willing to bet that the website stimulates book sales. And generates a lot of publicity. Alison’s publishers should be tickled pink that this site is so well done and so popular. 3,000 hits a day. And a google page rating between 5 and 6. Come on. It’s a publicist’s dream.
Hey, is it just me or does the phrase “unruly little fuckers” come from the comix jam Alison did with Diane Dimassa et al.?
I’d buy that shirt…
And I could get really crass with the butt pirates day thing, but I’m willing to believe most readers will already have thought of most of the same unfortunate puns I did.
Duncan,
I’m interested in your stated desire to choose language that will “infuriate”,”annoy” or make people feel “uncomfortable”.
Sometimes standing up for our own beliefs/rights can inadvertently lead to other’s feeling angry, uncomfortable or annoyed. However, the goal would be to encourage those people to relax and see that asserting our rights would not preclude them from maintaining theirs…that different need not mean dangerous.
I don’t see the rationale that supports nurturing those negative reactions in others. What is gained? Only in the face of hopelessness would one need to be satisfied with causing more disdain/discomfort without engaging in attempts to promote understanding.
Surely taking a condescending and provocative stance such as that does nothing but maintain the chasm between you and those you see as your adversaries. Shock value (ie ACT UP) has it’s place but without a context it has no positive outcome.
I don’t think Duncan is “choosing” other people’s discomfort. Their internalized shit about certain words is theirs to own (or not, as seems to be increasingly popular). What I heard is that he likes the terms, and uses them, and there’s the additional benefit of not coddling the needs of those who want certain language to never reach their ears. For many of us, to speak honestly at all is to make some folks claim discomfort. Where to draw the line? Target groups members are not on 24/7 call to explain our reality to others; it’s a gift we can give them, not one they can demand.
The only condescension I saw was in labeling him as such. He just sounded like a real fag to me.
For better or worse this site has become a thing unto itself. Alison puts up her schedule,her random photos,her comics,her queer little movies and posts what she feels like posting when she feels like posting. Her readers take off from there with what I find to be largely fascinating commentary. The fact that people seem to like it so much is the real dream.
No offense to Alison but I know you can’t mean that publishing a photo of a piece of visual art online is akin to publishing the written word or a comic strip online? My beloved mentors from art school (if they weren’t already dead) would have coronaries at such heresy! My measly monitor can’t do a Matisse justice or even adequately display the work of my dear friend and favorite photographer, Geraint Smith.
Now I’m gonna agree to disagree and comment no further on this topic. I want to respect our host’s recent request for self moderation. If only I was like LM. I admire her/his resolve.
LMAO! ASooz, you crack me up.
It’s my first time to see this strip, so this is how Mo is on flirt mode;) Well, almost flirt mode. This actually reminds me of myself– how I have an inclination to talk ‘serious’ stuff during socials (though not to an ulcer-causing degree, whew!). I have just been made aware of my geek factor and will accordingly tone it down. Thanks, Mo. lol.
the word ‘queer’:
– is broad: it encompasses many ways of being not-normal, or strange, around sex. can also refer to being non-normal gender-wise, regardless of who you sleep with or want. Also, it
– embraces the suggestion of deviance or transgression. as in “yes, i’m queer”: i know you see me as strange, and i’m cool with that b/c i know who i am and what i do. or as in “damn straight, i’m queer.” (ok, now i’m just messin’.)
so yes, bio-Chick, there’s a trace of defiance in the word. and as we all know, we can sometimes throw drama with that, n’ it can get a little outta control sometimes but hey, there’s a queen somewhere in all of us.
i sleep mostly with women or trans folk, am generally attracted to masculinity at least externally, and find many gay boys darling. i’ve never identified as lesbian, not sure why. just doesn’t resonate — some of the history & political connotations / alignments.
i know some folks see it as a cop-out from having to ID as lesbian, but i’m out to my family, and they’d actually find ‘lesbian’ or even ‘bi’ easier, as they’ve let me know.
queer just gives me more breathing space for all the ways i mix it up.
hey nice use of anagrams there, was it intentional? boi-chick, bio-chick, funny.
Will that ubiquitous rodent, Mus cybermanipularus, bite me? Nah. Maybe next thread.
I’m confused about the fund drive controversy.
We’re talking about a VOLUNTARY, OPTIONAL donation, right? What’s the big deal? Did I miss something?
Bella– Nah, it’s just people getting uptight about things because that’s what they do for entertainment. There’s no need to take any of it seriously unless you want to.
I think the word “donation” is causing trouble. It’s a fee for something (a comic strip) that you’d ordinarily have to buy a newspaper for, but newspapers carrying DTWOF are getting few and far between. I subscribe to lots of comics on the web, and $12 per year is pretty usual.
Jana C.H.
Seattle
Saith WSG: “It’s quite usual, eh Lord Chamberlain?” “I’ve known it done.”
Aunt Soozie —
I took my nom de computer from the title character of “Harriet the Spy” back in 92 (eek, I’m old). This ended up being the spelling of choice because the traditional spelling of “Harriet” had already been selected by someone on AOL so this spelling became me. When I first discovered DTWOF, I did get a thrill to find out about [i]the[/i] Harriet.
Jana,
“…it’s just people getting uptight about things because that’s what they do for entertainment.”
That’s as succintly as I’ve ever heard it expressed, except for this:
“Oh the drama!”
On the “queer vs. lesbian” info. That was what I told the student…it was a student asking about something a professor said, not the student making the statement. Anyway, you guys are awesome…thanks bunches!
The thing about this strip that sticks out in my mind the most: in the 4th panel, when Mo says the Iran/Contra line, I always thought she was sticking her elbow up in the air for emphasis. Only years later did I realize it was actually the dancer behind her.
Also, props to whoever quoted Mistress Matisse.
Also, I use queer as a more nebulous umbrella term than dyke, (because I hate explaining that whole dyke-and-dating-male-lesbian thing) and also because it’s a much yummier, sexier word than lesbian.
Boi-chick, Maggie Jochild explained me better than I could have done myself. (Maggie, I hope I’m a real fag! It would be a shock to discover that I’m only a faux or mock fag. A cheap knock-off brand, maybe? Probably, given my low-class origins, that’s what I am.) It’s interesting, though, that you chose to misread me as saying that I use those words primarily to offend. As Maggie explained, if many straight bigots got their pants in a bunch over our vicious recruitment of the innocent little word “gay,” that was an added benefit of using it, not the primary reason to do so. (And you seem to misunderstand very seriously what ACT-UP was all about.)
As for making people uncomfortable, if straights use “queer” when they think no queers are in the room, why shouldn’t I want to make them uncomfortable? (Be uncomfortable; be very uncomfortable.)
And as for “causing more disdain/discomfort without engaging in attempts to promote understanding.” you’re jumping to some interesting uninformed conclusions. I *do* engage in “attempts to promote understanding” — I’ve been involved in various forms of activism, outreach and education since 1971, probably well before you were born. (I run the very successful GLB Speakers Bureau at my university, for instance.) “Disdain” and “discomfort” are two very different words, by the way, and refer to very different things.
Oh dear, I’ve overrun the 10-line limit *again*, and I haven’t been very moderate(d). How many times must I walk the plank, mistress liza?
I don’t engage in a lot of attempts to promote understanding these days. I wear the clothes I wear (“men’s” by section designation at the store, but they’re mine) because I like them, they look good on me, and I have the right to do so. I bristle at the suggestion that I should have to explain my attire to anyone. I love/like/engage in salacious activities with the people I do because they meet my criteria. If that makes other, univolved people uncomfortable, I see no reason to make them feel better.
But I don’t go out of my way to make people feel uncomfortable (anymore) because a) I’m not 18 anymore and b) it’s not worth my time. Neither is accomodation. Of course, if someone is so caught up in their idea of how the world should work that the sight of me out with a femme, a fag, a butch or whomever makes them uncomfortable, I will probably point it out to my companion and we’ll have a good laugh. Because if they’re using us for their entertainment, we might as well get some entertainment ourselves. Not to mention that it’s so annoying and tiresome that if I don’t laugh, I’ll just turn back into that angry 18 year old again and nobody wants that, least of all the aforementioned lovely companion.
Which isn’t to say I haven’t ever done outreach or education, nor that I don’t appreciate the work of those who do. I don’t have the patience for it most of the time.
I know that comment was directed at Duncan, but there are my $0.02 anyway.
The end of the first paragraph should read: “If that makes other, uninvolved people uncomfortable, I see no reason to make them feel better.”
guess we’re all reaching out, healing and protecting ourselves at our own pace and in our own way.
the most recent label applied to me is “innocent,” by a person who’s 17 years younger than I! when I explained that having both a cross and rainbow beads on my keychain has significance in expressing my identity, he suddenly saw how I might be a little bit subversive!
don’t know your age, Butch Fatale, but you seem to be exhibiting a tendency that’s pretty common in those approaching 40 or on the other side of that milestone — worrying about what other people think/attempting to influence what others think just doesn’t seem worth the effort!
now that I’m well past 40 what others think of me doesn’t have much effect on how I view myself. seems, though, that what others think of me — and people like me — has an effect on the state of the world. the energy I expend addressing how others think of “people like me” fluctuates wildly.
Regarding filthy lucre:
Since when is buying the books an alternative to making a contribution to the website? Do both.
Personally, I think Alison should be more aggressive about trying to get people to pay to read the strip here. E.g. she could put a reference to Paypal at the end of each new strip.
I don’t know Alison personally, but I think she understands that different readers have different levels of financial resources. I can’t believe she would show any favoritism toward those who are in a better position to contribute. (I’m not one of them.) Reading between the lines, I got the sense that some people might be worried about this — that the opposition to the fund drive is not merely “drama”. I may be making this all up out of my imagination, but if anybody has been worried about this, I can’t believe it really would be a problem. Alison has made too many references to the crappy jobs she held after college, and pre-Fun Home she often expressed her fear that she’d have to go back to a crappy job. She knows what it’s like not to have extra money.
Those who can should pay to read the strip here. Those who can’t afford it should take care of their major responsibilities and take pride in knowing that they’re taking care of the most important things.
D.F., I somehow find it hard to see “queer” as a cop out. maybe others do because it seems so vague? but it’s the vagueness that makes it so useful, seems to me.
I’ve found that folks consider it a stretch to call women who switch teams “lesbians” when they’re with men. if that’s your M.O., I can see that “lesbian” wouldn’t be a good fit, regardless of your feelings about the word.
I have difficulty sometimes IDing my gay self — spend most of my time in the straight world and don’t feel or look very butch. at this time in my life, still have more experience with men than with women.
much as I love my church community, it’s looking more and more as though I’m gonna have to find a congregation with a critical mass of lesbian/queer/bisexual women to “find” a woman. the other places where I’m comfortable (other than this little niche in cyberspace) have the same proportion of LGBT folk as you’d find in the general population. that’s not promising . . .
here’s the kicker — I’ve fallen for a guy who admits he’s attracted to me but is very cautious with women. have spent enough time with him, in mixed company, to figure out he’d rather spend time with his guy pals than anyone female (except, perhaps, his daughter). ouch!
we’ve got all kinds, here, don’t we??!?
You know, I’d forgotten this strip completely. Now I’ll have to re-read the whole book. But you can count me in the camp that prefers Sydney to Harriet. I can see Harriet’s good points, but I prefer Sydney’s character. And realistically, who’d want to date someone who smells of Wonderbread ?
Ian: True, there is a lot of 1970s hair in London at present. But not on me ( I’m quite happy with my 80s french crop ).
MLK mentioned the cross and rainbow beads on her keychain. My car used to have both an Ixthys and a Darwin fish on it. Until I crashed it. I don’t think that the fishes had anything to do with the crash, though.
at one point my car had a Christian fish symbol and “Who Would Jesus Bomb?” bumpersticker. someone removed the bumper sticker; I think the two together were just too much for their mind to take in and they had to resolve the cognitive dissonance!
My fridge has the Christian fish symbol with the word “gefilte” inside it. (No offense intended.)
My laptop poudly carries a ‘gefilte fish’ – it confused the living daylights out of people on my last visit to Africa. 🙂
Butch Fatale, I don’t go out of my way to make people uncomfortable, and never have made it a policy to do so, not even when I was a militant firebrand of 20 or so. But I don’t have to go out of my way, since just being myself — like you, as you describe yourself — does the job most effectively. Just the sight of a butch woman, or a sissy man, or two men or two women holding hands, or the fact of a person who comfortably acknowledges that she or he is gay/lesbian/bisexual/queer instead of denying it furiously, will make many people (straight or GLBTQpi) uncomfortable.
That’s not to say that making people is my primary aim. But being made uncomfortable is one of the perks of living in a (nominally) free society. One thing that I really, really, take exception to is the dogma of therapeutic culture that people should not be made uncomfortable. (Unless, of course, they’re the *wrong* people — Bible-beating Republican trailer trash, for instance — in which case they are fair game. I’ve observed this little contradiction so often that it makes me quite confident that the “don’t make people uncomfortable” dogma is fake, and that most of the people who push it are hypocrites.)
On the “fund drive” thing. I think it’s a valid question as to who is cheerleading it. The reason it happened last year is that Alison made some worried posts about her financial situation, and people chipped in. But Alison hasn’t expressed any such worries lately (maybe from self-protectiveness? — no, I think she would let us know if she was having trouble), so I’m not sure it’s needed right now. My local community radio station needs its fund drives every year, but does this site? I think it’s just great to give her money, I don’t think it’s merely “drama” to ask *someone else* who’s cheerleading the project, when Alison herself hasn’t said anything.
I don’t think “queer” is a “copout.” I do wonder about people who think it’s not an identity.
mlk, why did you have that bumper sticker on your car in the first place? why do you have to go out of your way to make people uncomfortable? 9-)
Yeah, Duncan. I feel you!
@Will:
So ksbel, your student was probably saying “I’m not a lesbian, but I like girls.” Her reluctance to identify as lesbian might be because she likes boys, too, but it isn’t, necessarily: who knows, she might identify as a straight boy. Or she might just be a girl who likes girls and hates the word lesbian. It’s tough to know without asking awkward and invasive questions about her history, which is sort of the point—no one makes straight people answer those questions, so why should queers have to answer them?
Ksbel has already resolved the antecedent issue, so this is somewhat moot in terms of its applicability to the real original situation, but I wanted to address this. A woman who likes women may not want to identify herself as “lesbian” for the very simple reason that she holds a connotation for that term that includes the very same dissection of semantics and semiotics that we’re engaging in right now, and she’d rather just have fun. 🙂
liza from pine street art works Said: “Pay for Alison’s work, by all means. It is valuable. Buy the books[…]”
I’d really like to buy the books, as a matter of fact we (as in me&my girlfriend) ordered all the available ones online from the Firebrand website over two months ago. Apart from the “thank you for ordering” automatic mail, not a sound, books or mail 🙁 I’ve sent an e-mail asking if there was a problem – no answer. I’ve waited patiently, but am getting quite annoyed. Does anybody know anything about them? Are they usually this slow? They haven’t gone bust or anything? I got the impression that they do ship to Europe as well, at least we paid for shipping outside USA and Canada. And if not, they could send a mail, right? I don’t want to order them from elsewhere either, and suddenly end up with two sets… I’d really appreciate some input about this! Thank you.
LiFF — have you tried calling? they have a 1 800 number for orders. Maybe you can get some information that way?
Orders only:
800-343-4499
Information from: http://www.firebrandbooks.com/about.html#contact
I’ve considered it, but there is the small problem with a) the time difference b) understanding spoken American English… some versions can be pretty impossible for me 🙁
Lurker from Finland. I called the distributor, Perseus books (that’s the 800 number above).
She couldn’t track your order for me without a name or tracking number – or even be certain that they were the ones responsible for shipping this order – but said you could email her directly. margie.tran(at)perseusbooks.com
If this doesn’t work, let me know and I’ll try something else for you. You can email me: liza(at)pinestreetartworks.com
Thank you, I’ve sent her an e-mail:-)
Hi Duncan,
I definitely know folks who DO go out of their way to provoke people and make them feel uncomfortable, simply for the sake of causing discomfort…out of pent up anger, resentment, all sorts of things. I knew many gay men who practiced that philosophy in my youth.
That was what I was reacting to in your response to boychik. (Who maybe is a little boychik and not as old as you or I and as I have said before, you seem a bit cynical and impatient with the younger folk)
Anyway, it did seem you were speaking as someone who would get a kick out of causing straight people and some homos who don’t see things your way to feel ill at ease. That you would actually enjoy having that effect on people. Maybe I misread you.
I’m not at all for coddling people or as I said, being passive. Those are two different things. When you cause discomfort by default…just by being GLBTQ you need not change your identity to please others or ease their fears or discomfort. I would never support that…
Further, as a clinician and a parent I’m strongly in favor of balance, in that as a parent we need to both support and frustrate our children in order to meet their needs and as a clinician I need to support and challenge my clients to meet their needs. It’s how those things are accomplished that differs.
I object to parents who “find” reasons to say no because they need control or have a need to assert beliefs on their kids or simply because they don’t know how to support and so they overly emphasize challenge. Opportunities to say no and to set firm limits will always arise. You don’t have to contrive those moments or set up arbitrary rules just because. But I also object to the many disenfranchised parents I meet who don’t think they can set any limits with their children and don’t realize that by nurturing without challenging they are creating kids who are ill equipped to function in day to day life. (and kids who are obnoxious too)
Likewise in our actions out in the world…I can’t support anyone deciding to provoke others simply for the sake of pissing them off and “getting back at them”. As I said in my earlier post I am not above sin. I can’t say I’ve never lashed out in anger or said something to deliberately piss someone off or to get a reaction. But it is contrary to what I believe is productive and how I want to live in this world…who I aspire to be…
What I mean by making others comfortable and taking responsibility for that was well illustrated by LM. What I mean is that rather than taking an us against them mentality or walking around with a chip on my shoulder as I saw so many folks in our community do for so long..including gay men, lesbians and feminists…rather than taking the “fuck ’em if they don’t like us” approach…I favor taking an approach of being open and willing, understanding.
It’s those people who are not zealously against us but just uncertain or ill-informed that we really need to connect with and get to know personally. It’s that old credo that the personal is political. It’s not deliberately upsetting people but being true to who we are and then welcoming their stares and inviting their questions and not taking their ignorance personally.
I’m not saying don’t punish the gay bashers and murderers, just give them some education…I’m saying those people, the ones who want to beat us to death or take legal action to block our rights are the minority. They can pull others along with them in their frenzy or we can bring others along with us by claiming and asserting our humanity.
I understand that we’re not always going to stop in the middle of our lives, (or our dates as mentioned above)to be educators to the masses but in our personal interactions, at school, at work, at the pta meeting, in the grocery store…we make an impression. That’s why it is important to come out where you can, when you can. Like I said before, when you are out there in the world, you gotta represent. It’s a burden and a responsibility that I chose to accept.
I once heard Joann Loulan say, look, when you’re in the grocery store can you hold hands with your partner and when I’m in the grocery store I’ll hold hands with partner…that way my mom will see you and your partner and your mom will see me and my partner and she won’t think I’m doing this just to bother her.
Some of us can’t pass as mainstream and therefore our presence alone can make others feel uncomfortable. I could say, too bad…let ’em squirm or I could say let’s keep sharing of ourselves in a way that brings our humanity to light. Notice Joann said, hold hands, not get naked in the produce aisle and pull out your strap on…
Okay, yeah, for some it wouldn’t take that, even the hand holding, even asserting that I’m the same as they are, that I am simply human, may make some people feel uncomfortable. It might challenge their beliefs, but, the goal isn’t to make them squirm, the goal is to have them rethink their prejudices.
You know the old line that the Queen shares with Pippin? Something about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar? it’s about how you choose to move about in the world…it’s about the base of your intentions and what propels you in your day to day interactions with others.
Is it a spirit of supporting and challenging in a loving, strong and respectful way? Or is it Pippin’s die hard with a vengeance go down in a blaze of glory?
It’s hard to me to explain it in writing…hope you get a better sense of what I mean. I find myself wondering if we are basically on the same page?? Let me know.
Well, Berlin newspapers had two pieces of news last week:
1. Most Germans can imagine having a gay chancellor (thinking of Klaus Wowereit, the current mayor of Berlin)
2. A study of the students in high school (Gymnasium and Gesamtschule, i.e. people with a chance to go to university) showed that 48% of the boys with a German background found the idea of seeing two men kissing in the street repulsive, 76% of those with a Russian background voted for repulsive, and 79% of those with Turkish background.
With girls, 10% of the girls with a German background found the idea of two women kissing repulsive, 60% of the girls with a Turkisch background and 64% of those with a Russian background.
These are the results from the better educated students in the German city which is supposed to be the most tolerant and open (and undoubtedly has the largest gay community in Germany).
Wheras the news fokus on the gay-hating attitude of the migrant boys, I’m shocked that nobody talks about the 48% of boys with a German background who still feel kissing men are repulsive.
I, for one, think that kissing and holding hands in public is something anyone in love should be able to do without eybrows (or fists) beeing raised, but I do wish people would refrain from including me in their sexual practices as a spectator (as some do with fucking on the floats of the Pride Parade or in other public places). If I take part in sexual activity, I wanna have the possibiliy to say no!
The last really political action I saw at the Berlin Gay Pride parade is longer ago than I care to remember, two guys in Jeans and T-Shirts with large red dots selling punch (sparking wine with fruits) to the (heterosexual) spectators. When people bought a glass and had taken a sip, one of the guys turned round and on the back, his t-shirt said “homosexuality is catching”.
That got people thinking…
Some really put away the drink – words have power, it seems
my $.02 about fundraising and paying for comics on the site:
when Alison was dropped by PlanetOut — was that in 2005??!?! — and asked the blog community about making the strip available online, she said that she hoped to break even.
Alison had been getting $300/month from Planet Out (I think — am not researching the archives here, just want to post) and hoped that the folks reading the strip online would contribute at least that much each month to see the strip. there was some talk of subscribing to have the strip e-mailed directly to whomever signed up, but Alison elected to post the strip here instead. at the time, readers expressed the belief that she should be able to get more than the $300/month that she’d been getting from PlanetOut.
if folks donate the suggested $1/strip, 25 people would need to make the $12 contribution each month for Alison to recoup what she’d been getting from PlanetOut. since she’s also losing money from fewer print subscriptions, I think that should number should be higher. don’t know how much, though.
there was also talk of a sliding scale where those who can pay more than $1/strip make a larger contribution, and those whose finances are quite tight due to unemployment, a fixed income that doesn’t cover living expenses, medical expenses, etc. pay what they can. at the time that Alison made this decision she was publishing 2 strips/month and so the suggested donation for the year was $24.
I’m wondering if Alison has been getting $300/month from her readers for the past couple of years? if she hasn’t, she might want (but isn’t required) to mention it. at the same time, I doubt she wants to devote time and energy to a strategy for making the online strip “pay.” any who are concerned about Alison’s finances and/or fundraising should go to the “Support This Site” link. and this may also be a good time to make use of the site’s PayPal button . . .
The reason that I started getting the LC was to get the DTWF that I missed and now I just come here and read them.
I also really find Mo to be cute…..hmmmmm does that mean that I also think that AB is cute since I think that MO looks a lot like her.
I don;t agree w/ the pay pal thing.
Oh good gosh. 1987, I was a teenaged activist who kept yapping about what was wrong with the world and not paying enough attention to my own sexuality. It changed that year, however, when a phone-based relationship turned physical. The association with a gigantic suburb of Toronto with sex has persisted, though the relationship was doomed.
World’s still here, as are many of the problems.
I still find that I talk when I should be reading body language, too. Argh?
DW
I remember the days that i went to dances and was really nervous. This brought back some old memories even though I was nervous I really enjoyed myself, and miss it quite a bit. Thanks for the blast through the past.
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